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BLM tryin' 2 block BB

topic posted Mon, May 2, 2005 - 9:40 PM by  Keegan
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It's a drag... In case you haven't received the news via email - the gory details are as follows and at www.burninbush.org:

[Burnin'Bush] Update: This year's Permit; BLM & Black Rock Politics

This summer's BB festivities MAY BE CANCELED due to BLM Red Tape & Black Rock Politics —

The Bureau of Land MANagement is requiring Burnin'Bush to pay $6700 up front in "Recovery Costs" in lue of $4/per person per day for a Special Recreation Permit. BB is also now required to purchase liability insurance for all attendees while on public land for 2-3 days. Icing on the cake - we have been informed that Law Enforcement will also be ever-present, and include federal, state, and county levels.

Not only is this absurd, we absolutely CAN NOT afford such ridiculous costs for a weekend of our family and friends camping, making art, and metal banging in the desert! Last year Burnin'Bush brought in approximately $2,000 in donations and still BB didn’t pay for itself.

Thus far, we have been very cooperative with the BLM - We provided them with the Operating Plan they requested, and have met several times to discuss the possibility of having the permit fees waived due to the fact that we are a Not For Profit educational group/happening - All to no avail.

The restrictions being imposed by the BLM contradict all that BB stands for on this lovely patriotic holiday. What has happened to celebrating freely in the land of the free? Bureaucratic Bullshit... The BLM has also admitted the obvious, this is the trickle down effect of BM POLITICS on the Black Rock Desert. No matter what size a gathering, entertainment on any level in this area has to pass the approval of the public, and [specifically] the Burning Man organizers — see the Red Tape Letters link on the BB website.

Next step? We either comply (and charge everyone in advance) or find a new place! We're not interested in going into the festival business, we just want to inspire with fire, eat hot dogs, make art, and keep Burnin'Bush FREE! Any leads to a possible private locale would be appreciated - please contact topazrose@burninbush.org
Thank you.
posted by:
Keegan
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  • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

    Mon, May 2, 2005 - 9:58 PM
    There was talk about this this weekend around the campfire at Frog. It was suggested that we look into the Playa near Austin NV. It's more remote and it's a differnt BLM district which get's *NO* BM money and might be happy to have us there if we payed a smaller, or maybe no, fee that the Winnemucca district would charge.
    • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

      Tue, May 3, 2005 - 6:32 AM
      also, the paiute (sp?) tribe was amenable to talks with bm a couple years ago about their land on pyramid lake when things were looking precarious... they may still be approachable for something like this, on land THEY own...
      • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

        Tue, May 3, 2005 - 6:59 AM
        Hmm... I wonder where on the reservation it could be held. There really isn't much "playa" like space on the reservation. Perhaps at the North end of the lake. I have heard there are some flat areas up there, but haven't yet explored the area.

        Plus the key to good negotiations is to have another option and be willing to walk away. :-)
        • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

          Tue, May 3, 2005 - 7:46 AM
          it was a piece of land that ended up right on the edge of the lake, and yeah, i think it was the north shore. it was a long sort of triangular piece, if i recall correctly, and it was something that was potentially suitable for burning man's size, so i would have to assume it would be far more than suitable for the needs of burnin' bush.

          there are other folks on this tribe and involved with this project who have far more information and names than i am coming up with here.

          just a thought.
    • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

      Sun, May 8, 2005 - 9:52 PM
      That is even worse the BLM is wanting enviromental reports on all there lands this is part of the new regime. Go figure??? I spoke to some higher ups and ths is there policy.
  • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

    Tue, May 3, 2005 - 9:12 AM
    We're still looking into some private property just north up Jungo Road a bit further too.

    The couple that own the land aren't in the NCA, they're anti Bman, but very art and self expression friendly folks who've worked with us at the gate at "that other" event back in '97. I'm hoping we can work something out with them or with another area.

    For the BLM to be treating us like that playa damaging other group simply isn't fair, hell, it takes them 6 years to clean a site properly. For us? We're tiny, educational and not for profit. We don't have tourists.

    So, like I said, we're talking with our friends about thier land.
  • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

    Tue, May 3, 2005 - 9:13 AM
    Find out the rules for camping, and follow them.
    Small campsites that are on there own.
    DROP THE NAME
    Each one of the camps gets a fire works permit.
    One camp brings the welder
    Lots of guns
    have fun

    Jon
  • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

    Tue, May 3, 2005 - 10:31 AM
    Yes, why can't it be more of a camp-on-your-own thing rather than an event that the BLM has to "regulate"?
    • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

      Tue, May 3, 2005 - 12:24 PM
      Yes , consider samall groups of 49 or less that are 100 yards apart. This used to work. I think someone has probably checked the recent rules. Also we need to checkout regulations on Flame Effects.. Remember they might be OK ,...but no briquets allowed.
      Thanks to everyones efforts
      Aloha
      Dustydog
      • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

        Wed, May 4, 2005 - 7:47 AM
        Is that what the rules are? Less than 49 and more than 100 yards apart? Let's do it........

        Dusty? Was that you that asked about the propane cannon in the back of my white Toyota P/U in Richmond yesterday?????


        -T-don
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

          Wed, May 4, 2005 - 9:29 AM
          It's raining in winnemucca....

          how about a different state all together??

          got any suggestions? I'll start researching! Personally I love Southern Oregon and would like to have a reason to explore the lava beds or the desert there!!!!

          Have you ever checked out Crater Lake?

          Lot's of hot springs in those hills too!
          • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

            Wed, May 4, 2005 - 10:51 AM
            Alvord Desert, while also blm land, is a playa, very similar to Black rock, also has a hot spring.

            Lots of cowboys and landsailors there. There are places on the east side of the playa, with small (5 ft) rolling dune like hills.

            www.snowman-jim.org/climbing...6-alvord/

            Thats a link, i just googled. has some nice photos. including one of the hot spring outbuilding.
        • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

          Sun, May 8, 2005 - 9:54 PM
          Also another main problem is thaqt this is an advertised event. And there are special permits needed for fire and welding since there is and was a fire restriction on federal lands. I know this due to all the research for this years permiting process.
  • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

    Wed, May 4, 2005 - 9:55 AM
    You know, last year I distinctly remember there being two other events out there. They were both on the Black Rock playa, I believe. One is the Fourth of Julplaya or something like that. Does anyone know if these groups are being asked (ordered?) to pay as well?
    L
    • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

      Wed, May 4, 2005 - 11:15 AM
      I have no idea if they're being harassed or not, but the problem lies in being "organized".

      If it were a spontaneous event, with NO organization, no plans, no classes, no outhouses, and we all just showed up and "hey, look who we ran into" it would be fine.

      It's too late for that.

      Last year I paid the BLM fine for us for "not pulling the proper permit" and had a talk with the representative, whom I've known for years. He legally could have given us as little as 4 hours to disperse.

      Can you believe that?? Obviously he did not follow through and we went on about our business. Intelligently and honestly. That is how we need to continue to proceed.

      But oh..wait, all the other groups, we're assuming......somehow aren't being bothered......Hmmm.........

      VM
      • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

        Wed, May 4, 2005 - 11:47 AM
        I am assuming they are not being bothered, but that is only an assumption.
        Maybe they are being bothered and I just don't know, that is why I was asking :)
      • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

        Wed, May 4, 2005 - 1:01 PM
        Stop being organized then.
        We camped a half a mile away with our small band of 35 people, and had no trouble with the Man last year.
        Why be organized outside of your own camp. Can they stop you from having porta potties in your own camp?

        Just camp,enjoy the playa, and the art/toy we all bring to share.

        Seems to me some of you want to fight them. Count me out, as you will not win.

        Jon
        • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

          Wed, May 4, 2005 - 2:18 PM
          Not fighting, just asking.
          • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

            Wed, May 4, 2005 - 3:10 PM
            "Not fighting, just asking"

            DOH!! I was hoping for some entertainment.... My money's on Laura... :-)
            • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

              Wed, May 4, 2005 - 3:19 PM
              Mines on BM
              • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                Wed, May 4, 2005 - 3:26 PM
                Mine's not on BM, but on the BLM.

                That's why we have to do things the right way with the amount of people who've signed up to attend our classes and enjoy this splinter event of Draka Arts.

                Fighting them won't work, hiding from them and pretending to not be organized, a total lie and just causes more trouble for the ones who put this together and no fun for those who came to really contribute or gain something by attending.

                Finding an honest, open piece of private land may be the course we need to take if we're not going to be judged against such event ast Burning Man, which clearly isn't the same.

                And for as many times as I've been out there in the last 15 or so years, I've never been bothered a bit by the BLM and neither has our group, save for when someone mails the BLM a website with the information on it like they did last year. Oh, and that's not a guess, that's dead out of the mouth of the officer we had to deal with.
                • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                  Wed, May 4, 2005 - 3:44 PM
                  And you don't think that email came from BM.

                  Let go. Just camp. simple is fun. if you want complicated goto BM where they have done all the work for you.

                  I'm not organizing, nor am I hidding, just camping with friends.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                    Wed, May 4, 2005 - 3:48 PM
                    eeek! I didn't know about an email.
                    I am still confused, though, on why BB is an issue and the other campouts out there are not.
                    • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                      Wed, May 4, 2005 - 4:48 PM
                      "I am still confused, though, on why BB is an issue and the other campouts out there are not."

                      Mostly cus BB has posted the dates and activities to a website which is being used as a central information source for the event. If there was no website then doing what Jon suggests would be easier.

                      Now if we called it Quatro del Blue Playa we might be able to pull off something similar to 4th Juplaya which has no central cordination and information.
                    • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                      Sun, May 8, 2005 - 10:04 PM
                      Most of us who help get this thing going are EX-employees of the other evil empire, we were either retired behind our backs or just stabbed it the back either way they are affraid someone will do something that will affect there $4000.00 to $6000.00 a month pay. WHY else would Carmen and RAndy get an e-mail to a direct link to BB and told there was going to be 2-3000 people out there last year, this is all info the BLM told me. HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!

                      B.M. FUCKERS
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                    Wed, May 4, 2005 - 10:59 PM
                    Jon, I know the email came from BM. In fact, I have verbal confirmation from the officer including the name of the person it came from.

                    Ah, I wish it were all as easy as you make it out to sound. Just camp.

                    And hey, after working for BM for 10 years, I've seen all I need to, thanks, but um, that's not my thing ;)

                    And let's clear something up too. Since this is a public forum, both the BLM know about this list as does BM, it isn't like talking about it here is really going to fool anyone. Another reason to try to comply or find alternatives that are still positive for what we are all really trying to do.

                    If folks want to just "show up" and camp on any of the playas out there, they can, they just better not do it anywhere near each other or even know each other or remotely look like they're part of BB or it's going to cause some serious penalties for the project and no one wants to jeopardize what this program has to offer it's attendees.
              • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                Wed, May 4, 2005 - 4:41 PM
                "Mines on BM"

                Speaking of which... I need to drop the kids off at the pool...
                • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                  Wed, May 4, 2005 - 11:17 PM
                  This forum is very important. BB is more important and anything that does put the project in jeprody[SP] would be a shame!
                  Ive been going out to the playa on the forth for years. Small groups just show up ..including the landsailers. I must say I and a friend were camped two yers ago at Trego and hassled slightly by three blm Officers on a fire ring that we said was not ours [which it wasn't!]
                  Now They are aware and will be lookin for any and every minute infraction.
                  Has anyone asked Cowboy Carl for help...??
                  ...Some Private ranch land would do the trick
                  Aloha
                  Dustydog
                  This is the land of the free, dont tread on me.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                    Thu, May 5, 2005 - 12:16 AM
                    Yah, I've been "visited" by the BLM many times when camped near the second exit. I've camped there on and off for 13 years. I think we've camped there on Memorial Day and the Fourth for 6 or 7 years straight.

                    Last year at the second exit, we had a BLM volunteer stop by who must have missed the sensitivity training or something, he was accusing us of trashing the place, taking down license plates and in general being rude. We wrote to the BLM to complain, I never heard if much happened. Most of the BLM volunteers I've run in to have been quite a bit better than this guy, he was the exception.

                    BTW- The area where I've camped is probably trashed because the DPW parks the drags and shitters there. The area was fine until the last couple of years. I'll be camping somewhere else from here on out. Too bad, I have fond memories . . .

                    Ultimately, I think the right solution for BM will be private land.

                    In the short term for BB, camping in smaller groups is a good thing.

                    Last year at BB, I was none to happy to find two cops standing just outside the firelight with a K9 unit. Sadly, this was in a camp that was quite far from other camps. I don't mind cops, I just prefer that they come on in and chat, or stay away. This lurking is a form of voyeurism and a tad disconcerting.

                    About the Alvord: it is quite pretty, but it can be wet.

                    _Christopher

                    • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                      Thu, May 5, 2005 - 10:50 AM
                      "I have fond memories . . ." .. of shot guns & glow sticks.
                      Yes rabit head was trashed at the end of BM. I was sad on the drive out to see 2ft deep ruts cut into the playa by the trucks, and blue porta John water stained playa where we used to camp.
                    • Alvord Wet..

                      Thu, May 5, 2005 - 1:44 PM
                      The north end, yes, but last Memorial day, we were able to drive all over the south end. The west side is dry enough you can land a plane on it almost yr around (according to a pilot freind who flies in there, almost yr around).

                      Considering how dry Oregon has been this spring, and that we are talking a full month later...I dont believe a wet playa will be an issue.
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: Alvord Wet..

                        Fri, May 6, 2005 - 9:31 PM
                        Well, I partially I guess I retract my comment about the Alvord being wet. I've been by a dozen or so times and only really felt comfortable driving on it once, so I guess it was just my luck? Maybe the time of year, or a wet winter, who knows.

                        I'd support going to the Alvord, but it is a hike. Field is 285 miles from Reno (via Winnemucca). There are various shortcuts from Gerlach, none of them high speed. However, the Alvord is much closer to the main road than BB is to 447.

                        Also, near there Alvord there is much more private land than near BB. I suppose the desert itself is BLM or something, though I've never looked. There is also a pretty cool valley that goes up Steen's Mtn. that is BLM.

                        I see several alternatives:
                        1) Pay the $6700 and get insurance. I think the insurance
                        would be tricky. Can you imagine the conversation:
                        "Hello, I'd like to get insurance for an event... "Yes?"
                        "Well, last year there was a bowling ball cannon..." <click>"

                        We could check where BM or the land sailors get insurance.

                        2) Camp out spread out.

                        3) Relocate. The Alvord has its appeal. I think Smith Creek has a group on it.

                        4) Confront the man, get arrested, spend years in gitmo fer being a terrorist. <joke>

                        5) Bag it, stay home and shoot cans in warehouses in Oakland.

                        Probably some combination of the above is what will happen.

                        _Christopher
  • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

    Fri, May 6, 2005 - 12:10 PM
    Gosh....I seem to remember a time.....waaaay back......maybe in the middle ages...when some people, told the man....to FUCK OFF. just wonderin what kind of serious riot control the BLM really has....dont play by the rules....Change em...!

    Oh yeah, we got lives and jobs, and important stuff to do........
    • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

      Fri, May 6, 2005 - 12:22 PM
      Oh, I hear you. That was way back when they didn't know WHAT to think of the people out there, lol, and before burning man brought 40K fricking tourists out there each year. I remember just flipping them (the BLM) off as they drove by.

      Those days are gone.

      Now, with this project being the extension of Draka Arts, we're really not trying to be so punkrock or anarchistic. It's really about being credible while doing what we like.

      Yes, we like fire, guns, welding, art of all types, art cars, sculptures in the mud with kids too, nature education and being raucous (sp?). But we're not about to jeopardize our event. Changing the rules, yup, all about that too. It will happen, in time. But I'm not about to tell the man with the federal power to arrest me and handcuff me and who holds the gun to fuck off. Especially when I hold too much information over them to make that even necessary.

      Having our lives, jobs and important stuff to do is another good point. For some of us, we already have excellent resources within our real jobs etc that can make it all happen without such exhausting hoops being constantly being placed in front of us to jump through.

      Private land.....oh ya, I see it coming. BLM can lose out on ANY money once we do that.
      • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

        Sat, May 7, 2005 - 1:38 PM
        how much is some flat piece of land outside california?

        insurance is a cancer that needs to not be fed or else it grows.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

          Sat, May 7, 2005 - 7:37 PM
          Santa Fe was "selling" square mile lots for around $45k about 10 yrs ago. When I say "selling", I mean that you did not get mineral rights, but you got liability for any pre-existing environmental damage from previous exploitation of mineral rights. The lot I know about is at the south end of Winnemucca Lake, near Nixon. I don't think it sold, and I doubt it is still for sale. At that time, there were square miles on Carson Sink that were for sale for $25k-$33k.

          Looks like 80 acres near Lovelock is asking $60k:
          mysite.verizon.net/res6umrs...rSale.htm

          320 acres (0.5 sq mi) somewhere near Lovelock, $77,750
          www.landandfarm.com/lf/s/63/67086.asp

          I suppose this is offtopic, but I've always wondered why BM did not buy some land when Casey died. I guess they have a reason. The land they have now is a liability, they spent $800,000 on it and only $260,000 on art. For what, a bigger center camp? (borg2.org/larry.php3)

          Say we had use of a square mile, owned by a private individual.
          Could we tell BLM and the Police to stay off? If there was a private party being held, under what conditions could they come on to the land? I believe what got Rancho-Larry, (the 80? acres) in to trouble was violating land use laws: too many people above the zoning limit, no sewer?, too much debris (is this a ranch or a junkyard?). I'll bet that at some point one needs to apply for a use permit to hold a party and supply water, fire protection etc. Does anyone know?

          Would a private party on a privately owned square mile require insurance anyway? I agree that insurance is a cancer.

          BTW - I really hope that BM some day buys some land. I think it would really help them manage the event and save the playa from the dunes.

          _Christopher
          • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

            Mon, May 9, 2005 - 5:57 AM
            Here's an idea,there's a dry lake area right on Jungo road,past the tracks right on a road called Bottle Creek Road.I'm almost positive it's private.Might be worth checking into.Just my 2 cents!
            Wheelgunner
            • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

              Tue, May 10, 2005 - 2:35 PM
              Private land is not an option because of liability issues. The BLM can't be sued but a private citizen (land owner) can be. As much as I love you all as a property owner I would never allow a "high risk" event like BM or BB to occour on my property. The property owner can be sued to the extent of their liability which means the plantiff can go after any assets they have. Imagine losing everything you have worked for your whole life because someone got hurt at an event on your property. This is why BM passes on any opportunity to hold the event on property owned by them. If they did the liability could extend beyond BRC, LLC to the board members individually.

              Moving BB to tribal land is one solution that's sure to work and Flynn already kows who to talk to. He went to the meetings when the tribal council was courting BM. IIRC thats when he got the ticket for eating an Indian Fish Taco while driving. For the record there is nowhere on Piaute land suitable for an event the size of BM but for BB there could be a couple of options.

              I hope this helps, not wanting to be a bummer just get the facts out.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                Tue, May 10, 2005 - 7:05 PM
                Thanks for the clarification on the troubles of private land and liability. In Berkely, I think the Long Haul appoints a homeless person as their president in part because the homeless person has nothing to lose. I agree that if one put up the $$ for land, one would not want to lose the land and all other assets because of a lawsuit. One workaround for this is a limited liability corporation (LLC), which BM is (I think). Another is a non-profit corporation. Yeah, it requires money up front etc., but it is doable. Yeah, it is possible to get totally sued anyway. This is what board of directors insurance is for, and commercial liability insurance (getting commericial liability insurance for BB could be rough). I agree that it might be risky for a private person to host BM or BB, but a LLC or Non-profit would have less risk. So, perhaps the next BorgN should be to buy land as an LLC? I've been wondering why BM LLC with their cash flow has not pursued private land, I'm sure they've thought about it and have their reasons.

                The tribal land issue is interesting. I guess part of the Smoke Creek Desert is in Pyramid Lake Reservation. The surface of the Smoke Creek is pretty rough though, I've not been on it much. The pipeline guys totally underestimated the Smoke Creek and had a lot of gear stuck out there. I'm sure that there are other sites. It would be seriously wonderful to be at the Needles at the North end of the lake, but that area is fairly sensitive.
                • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                  Tue, May 10, 2005 - 7:33 PM
                  "...I think the Long Haul appoints a homeless person as their president in part, because the homeless person has nothing to lose..."

                  Doesn’t that seem wrong to you?

                  What have we become, that we must live in fear of lawyers suing people. I will never live my life that way.
              • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                Tue, May 10, 2005 - 8:15 PM
                Isn't this one of the reasons trusts are created? The trust owns the big ticket item, and has rules allowing the trustees to use it. A trustor ensures the rules are carried out.

                I understand this is how airlines work. Each plane is in its own trust so some backwater judge can't ground the entire airline if something goes wrong with a plane in his jurisdiction.

                I may be misinformed - google didn't support me, but I did find this while googling:

                If a trust is revocable, the trustor continues to be deemed to be the ultimate owner of the trust assets. For example, if I create a revocable land trust and convey my single family rental home to my limited liability company called "Land Trust, L.L.C.," as trustee and a tenant is injured on the property because of a faulty electrical system, the injured tenant may sue Land Trust, L.L.C., and me because the revocable trust will not protect me from creditors. This potential trustor liability could be avoided if the land were held by a corporation or a limited liability company.

                www.keytlaw.com/az/entities/trust.htm

                It's referring to Arizona law, but such laws tend to be similar across state lines.

                LLC - Limited LIability Corporation - is designed to protect against "liability ... extend[ing] beyond BRC, LLC to the board members individually." The Liability actually does NOT extend to the members.

                In my mind the proper way to do this is to set up an LLC, purchase the land, put it in a trust, then figure out how the hell to pay taxes. Perhaps charge other, small events a use fee in order to cover it.
              • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                Tue, May 10, 2005 - 8:23 PM
                Actually private land is the way to go, BM has held the event on private land before and the liability issuse are the same, they had injuries and no major lawsuites . It is call a release of liability and they had one drawn up when Fly Ranch was used, they are very common. BM carries a 10 mil. policy on the event also they are a purely for profit institution (LLC). A LLC does not protect anyone from legal issues like a true Corp. would the BM LLC is still finacially responsible and can be brought in front of a court for anything that happens. The way they scurry around their liability for injury and death is on the tickets.

                QUOTE from Eric C " This is why BM passes on any opportunity to hold the event on property owned by them. If they did the liability could extend beyond BRC, LLC to the board members individually.

                This is certianly not the case they could not afford the land they need for the event size.

                Legal issuses are all I help deal with for them ask Flynn my qualifications if you don't understand where I came from in the events. If you are concerned about people in your BB family sueing you or anyone else for using property ya'all ain't part of the family.

                RANT DONE
      • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

        Mon, May 16, 2005 - 10:42 AM
        Arrrrgh!!!! Real estate agents with nose piercings!!!!

        Form several corporations, spend a couple of years selling them to
        each other, make sure the parent corporation is a P.O. box in Antigua,
        Hire a thousand lawyers, and accountants, claim the event is a a secret
        defense research project, buy a couple of senators, get a bill crammed through congress to grant land, build a golf course and a prvate landing
        strip, and rave rave rave!!!

        Ok... so I don't have any constructive ideas....follow the rules to the letter, 49 people 100 yards apart, no fireworks, no drugs, no unleashed pets.....


        • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

          Tue, May 17, 2005 - 9:41 AM
          My 2 cents...

          Trying to "trick" the BLM won't work-- the cat's outta the bag, and they'll be looking for anything resembling an "event"... they have miserable boring lives and not much else to do, and they've got a taste for $$$...

          If BB goes to private land, since it's so much smaller and different from LollapaBurningLoozaMan, it should work out fine, but I imagine some insurance would be necessary (maybe just a liability agreement would do), and it would be smart to contact the county where it is held or at least research their codes.
          • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

            Tue, May 17, 2005 - 10:30 AM
            Trick!
            Who said anything about tricking them. I don't know who the fuck you are, and you don't know me. I camp with my friends, you with yours. I visit you if I want to, or stay to myself. There are no laws saying we can't talk to one another.
            I'm not sure what BB is to you, but for me, and the crew I go out with it's a art gun camp out, with some crazy hippies, and red necks camped down the way.
            Yes we will have to watch or Ps&Qs, and if it's too bad, we move on to the next playa.
            What's the advantage to making this more?
            Where did these classes come in, who's in charge, where is the sign up sheet, tickets, meetings, posters.
            There is none, or there shouldn't be (I hope someone is not trying to start one), a bb organization. Just a spot on tribe to talk about camping on the playa.

            enough said this thread just went over it's limit on how many can camp here.

            Jon
            • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

              Wed, May 18, 2005 - 1:17 PM
              Let me just add that anyone who really wants to be an anarchistic as possible is only going to hurt the credibility of those who help Draka Arts, the non profit behind this, and Burnin' Bush too.

              If anyone really wants to just go camp on some piece of dirt, have the guns, and what ever else they want to bring and not abide by the rules laid out in law by the Feds, is more than welcome to move themselves to anywhere but where this event is going to happen.

              I certainly don't know who you are, and rightfully, don't even care who you are Jon, and when I put my list of classes in to offer for the event as a productive means for coming together in the name of an actual art project I stand behind them. When I talk to the BLM on our behalf I do so with the care and consideration of everyone involved. You though, seem to think you're pretending to do one thing and doing another, and you're not doing anyone a favor.

              Anyone who see's thier own best interest above the rest of the group can just roll on. Anyone who can be constructive in managing a really fun part of a non profit that's being hassled can stay and play nice.
              • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                Wed, May 18, 2005 - 7:42 PM
                I'm not pretending anything, I camped a mile away from you all last year, and will continue to do the same.
                This WAS a camp out for a few friends including Flynn, and Lisa.
                Now Draka is in charge? Of what?
                Again I ask who BB is. Who is in charge, what are your goals, plans, bylaws, minutes, DBA.
                Who put you in charge to talk to the BLM on our behalf, what are you telling them.
                I support art, I love the classes that I have seen, and taught there.
                Please don't turn this into BM. This path has been taken before, and it doesn't produce the artistic pleasure bb has offered the last few years.

                The 49 person restriction is a good thing, and keeps our tribe from becoming a city of laws restrictions, and BM.

                Natasha keep an open mind to keeping this small, unorganized, and headless.
                I'll think about making it grow, but I need to know why, and an understanding of the cost to us, and the area. Blue wing is special place to many of us, and I'd hate to know that flynn, and I picked it to destroy.

                One more thing
                Flynn, Lisa, speak up!!!
                Tell me what's up here. You want to fight BM, and BLM? Why?

                Jon
                • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                  Mon, May 23, 2005 - 1:42 PM
                  Jon you said "Who put you in charge to talk to the BLM on our behalf, what are you telling them."

                  Flynn and Lisa had Natasha and I there to interact with BLM, we have been working with and against them for several years and know all the officers in the area, and the laws governing them.

                  Here's a piece of info for you Jon:
                  Last years fine should have been in excess of $1200.00 and all the people on the playa would have had to leave in 1 hour or face arrest and more fines (even if you were camped a mile away). Natasha and I talked and worked it so we all could stay the last day and a half, got the fine reduced, AND we paid the fine for Flynn and Lisa.

                  I can only speak for me but I would love to see a population that shrunk every year and not grow. This would be way easier for me to help Flynn and Lisa with, we wouldn't have to fill out applications and have emergency plans.

                  "The 49 person restriction is a good thing, and keeps our tribe from becoming a city of laws restrictions, and BM."
                  I'm not alright with this BM, helped write these numbers so no one else could do anything out there, NOT OK. I'm not OK with anything that is written so that 1 event is the only thing allowed on our public lands. If you read the NCA and look at it BM has made it so NO one else could do anything out there because of the $ and population size. That is why the Landspeeders and the Rocketeers were up in arms. I was ashamed of this, and when I involved with BM made it even worse.

                  The days of renagade camp-outs is in the past unless you want the DEA, ATF, BLM, or Nevada Black Vans around, they are out there year round now. Looking for anything.

                  RANT DONE

                  Freeze
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                    Tue, May 24, 2005 - 7:13 PM
                    Thanks freeze, and Natash for all the work!
                    Really.
                    I'd love for BM to work with people, and Not make things harder for all of us to play.

                    I'll Move on, and/or lay low with friends, and hope this all blows away.

                    Keep me in the loop

                    Jon
              • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                Thu, May 19, 2005 - 12:48 PM
                "If anyone really wants to just go camp on some piece of dirt, have the guns, and what ever else they want to bring and not abide by the rules laid out in law by the Feds, is more than welcome to move themselves to anywhere but where this event is going to happen. "

                This is a really odd/pushy statement. That playa is beautiful. I like camping on it. I worry that too many people involved in the BB project could end up ruing the playa there.
                I am also not sure camping on the Blue Wing Playa on 4th of July should be "owned" by any group.
            • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

              Wed, May 18, 2005 - 2:49 PM
              The lovely Natasha kinda said it all...

              Burning Bush has always been, as far as I know, a metal arts workshop with a liberal application of things that go boom, and it has always been an extension of Draka Arts, which is a non-profit entity. The group on tribe came later.

              And whether you go July 4 or January 4, there are laws and rules, and the BLM is in the house. I don't like it any more than you do, but I'm not in denial about it.
              • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                Wed, May 18, 2005 - 7:53 PM
                Metal arts workshop? ah yes, crazy folks did bring out some metal stuff, but that was their thing, not everyones. Most of us just danced. You could also say that it's was an extention of SRL, or Cyberbus, but that would be just as missleading as saying it was founded by draka.

                Tribe did come later, and I'd love a dose of delete before this rash spreads more.

                Agreed, don't break any laws.
                • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                  Sat, May 21, 2005 - 11:17 PM
                  .....zzzzzzzzzzz
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                    Wed, May 25, 2005 - 8:58 AM
                    so whats the status? is it happening?
                    i'm looking forward to spending more time blacksmithing this year!
                    • Re: BLM tryin' 2 block BB

                      Mon, June 20, 2005 - 9:35 PM
                      I know the guys out at Forth-O-Juplaya, and yes they had to jump through many hoops to get clearance. And yes they are paying too. But anyhow, what is up with BB? 10 days and countin' Sure hope things work out. Love playing with you guys. As the Nevada City Tribe says......Why don't you go and find your own fucking burning man....hehehe....always makes me laugh!
                      Peace

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